March 17th ---- MOTION APPROVED FOR STUDY INTO NEW ARENA!

[DogFan]

I have taken the liberty of copying a post from Kevin of LocalSportsReport.com. I hope he doesn't mind, but I thought it was important to bring to all IceDog fans.


On March 17, Councillor Burch will present his motion to city council asking for the city to undertake a study on the prospect of building a 5000 seat sports and entertainment centre. The study will look at potential economic spinoffs of a new facility as well as potential locations and financing options. A yes vote by council will indicate that the city is serious about building a new home for the IceDogs. I hope everyone will take a few moments to e-mail or call their councillors and encourage them to vote in favour of the sports and entertainment facility study.

Here are the councillors e-mail addresses:

bmcmullan@stcatharines.ca, jburch@stcatharines.ca, jstevens@stcatharines.ca, agill@stcatharines.ca, jkushner@stcatharines.ca, psecord@stcatharines.ca, gwashuta@stcatharines.ca, melliott@stcatharines.ca, hfoss@stcatharines.ca, bphillips@stcatharines.ca, ddodge@stcatharines.ca, lstack@stcatharines.ca, bwilliamson@stcatharines.ca

I think we should all take a minute to email the councillors this weekend.

[skatee]

i will definitely be emailing them all
thanks for lifting the post and putting it here

[GoDogsGo]

great post... thanks...

[Phil Margonis]

thanks
just emailed all of them

[GoDogsGo]

i too just emailed all of them....

[pup]

It's great that you are reminding everyone of this again. I was concerned based on the response in the first thread that not many would be contacting their councillors. I started working on our letter to councillors a couple of days ago and will have it to them before Monday. Based on what I heard on the radio talk show yesterday, there will be enough people in this city that will be contacting council that are against this. We need to speak very loud in order to drown out this group and be heard.

[GoDogsGo]

is the group the basket weavers assosiation?...LOL... people dont see the big picture here... multi use facility = lots of concerts/shows etc... even for those that dont like hockey.... they wont have to go out of town to see these things any more... there is SO much potential in the area...it just has to be done right... learn from the mistakes at the 4 plex in st.kitts...

[Casey]

I sent a quick email... not very good with formal emails. So I made it short and sweet

[GoDogsGo]

I sent a quick email... not very good with formal emails. So I made it short and sweet
the more the better... and it doesnt have to be a 1000 word essay....LOL

[Phil Margonis]

didn't like this response...

Thanks for your email.

While a new Spectator Arena has not a been established as a capital
priority for the city at this time, Council is aware that the Niagara
Ice Dogs are playing in an older undersized facility. Council has
focused in recent weeks on priorities that will have economic
development impacts for the City. Beyond the creation of a new Aquatics
Centre, which in my opinion, only made it on the list as a priority because
of potential Provincial funding, Council has chosen The Niagara Centre
for the Arts, and the reconstruction of the Carlisle Parking Garage as
its Major Capital Priorities. Both projects provide huge economic
benefits to the City and in the end the taxpayer.

The Niagara Centre for the Arts will be attached to a new campus for the
Brock University School of Fine and Performing Arts. It is essential
that the City partner with Brock University on the Niagara Centre for
the Arts in order for the University to move its Campus to the Downtown
core of our city. The University will be investing approximately 25
million dollars into the Downtown core to create the School. In addition
they are committing approximately 1 million dollars per year toward the
operating costs of the Centre for the Arts. The Niagara Centre for the
Arts is estimated to cost approximately 30 million dollars, which we
expect will be funded in a three way split with the province and the
federal government, essentially costing the city 10 million dollars.
That works out to 55 million dollar investment into the Downtown of our
city, at a cost to the city of 10 million dollars! That is a good
investment with good return! But the story is even better than that!
Brock University will bring 75 jobs downtown, along with 400 arts
students! The Centre for the Arts will provide a space for performers,
whether actors or musicians, to ply their trade, for which they are also
paid. There will likely be gallery space included in the design where
Visual Artists can display there work, resulting in sales and income for
them. The economic impact will spill out to restaurant, retail and
services that are provided Downtown. Partnered with the potential for
the Wine Route to come through our City and its tourism impacts, this
creates very real economic opportunity for our City.

The Carlisle Street Parking Garage, beyond being an embarrassment to
this City, presents an opportunity to be an economic catalyst
both for the City as a whole, and for Downtown. It is inevitable that
Go Transit will be coming to St. Catharines in the very near future.
The province has stated that Downtown St.Catharines is to be the growth
centre here in the region, and as such will be linking Go Transit to the
City.
It is likely that his service will initially be in the form of bus transit.
The
Downtown terminal will become the City's access to Go Transit, and
consequently the Carlisle parking garage will be required for commuter
parking. Go Transit can be directly linked to economic development.
Just look around the Lake to those communities that are already
connected. Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington all have experienced
enormous growth and wealth as a result, and can consequently provide
better quality of life for their residents. This new parking garage
will also service the Niagara Centre for the Arts, potentially, the
Niagara Regional Police, and the commercial district as a whole.

Recently, some developers and philanthropists have come forward with
some ideas about the redevelopment of the Arenas downtown. While
the development of a Spectator Arena is not currently a priority for this
City Council, we remain open to opportunities that may arise. If the
private
sector becomes interested in the creation of a spectator facility, we will
work with them to facilitate its creation. If a case can be built for real
economic development through the creation of such a facility, and it can
be shown that such a facility would be a good investment of our
residents tax dollars with a clear return, then council would be happy
to become an limited economic partner of such a venture. Councillor Burch's
motion, which we will hear on Monday, deals with just that. Is there an
strong
economic development case for investment into a new Arena? We will continue
to
meet with the developers to explore opportunities.

The real question is whether the residents of St. Catharines are willing to
shell out
Millions of dollars for another arena. I suspect that there will be extreme
resistance
to this expenditure. It has been suggested that the province and federal
government
might contribute to this project and well they might. However, we have
already asked
them, or anticipate asking them to contribute to numerous other very
important
projects, such as those listed above. We will remember that the Provincial
Government,
in recent weeks provided Brock University with over 35 million dollars for
their new
Biosciences complex. It is expected that the Federal Government will match
this
commitment, however, this is an anticipated 100 million dollar facility.
The remainder
of the capital required will be raised through fund raising. Which brings
me to my final
point.

All of these major projects are going to require some form of fund raising
in the
community. The Performing Arts Centre will be looking for benefactors, as
will Brock
University for its School of Fine and Performing Arts. Brock Biosciences,
an Aquatics
Centre, a 5000 seat Arena/Entertainment Complex, and a new state of the art
Hospital
complete with Regional Heart and Cancer Centres will all be competing for
the same
donors. Does this community really have the financial resources to pay?

The actions taken by council to prioritize capital expenditures, in the
context of need and
economic impact was an act of necessity. There is only so much public money
in the purse
and we are committed to using that money wisely! The Niagara Ice Dogs have
committed to
a five year lease of the current arena. Mr. Burke has publicly stated that
he is satisfied with
that arrangement. While we must deal with the selected Capital Priorities
first, within this
five year period, it is anticipated that council will have to deal with a
new home for the Ice
Dogs. We will continue to look for private partnerships and alternative
means of funding in
order to expedite this needed facility.
----
Jeff Burch's email was good thoguh. he said with hard work he thinks we can get a new arena.

[conchar]

I rec'd the same response from Mark Elliott...not very encouraging!!!

[B-Rad]

I thought the 17th was important because we'll all be drunk

[DogFan]

Just one negitive response....that is good news. There will always be a couple people on council that will oppose something like this. I think if the councillors that are in favor can convince those opposed to at least let staff look at the idea, it's in good shape. That will allow the staff to look for federal/provincial and private funding models to help build.
The fact that the mayor is onside is a big help.

[AlphaDog]

Through the grapevine I have heard some VERY important news: Apparently On March 17, Councillor Burch will present his motion to city council asking for the city to undertake a study on the prospect of building a 5000 seat sports and entertainment centre. The study will look at potential economic spinoffs of a new facility as well as potential locations and financing options.

This will be a big vote. A yes vote by council will indicate that the city is serious about building a new home for the IceDogs.

A NO VOTE HERE COULD BE TAKEN AS A NON-COMMITMENT BY THE CITY TO SUPPORT THE TEAM.

It is VERY IMPORTANT (I can't say why, but it is VERY important) that we show our support to the people below who will be voting, that we NEED A NEW RINK! Months of consecutive sellouts, most seats already spoken for next year except for bad ones in the ends, and simply mention anything else about our current rink and it's inability to support a team of this magnitude. HELP OUT PEOPLE - THIS IS YOUR **BIG** CHANCE TO DO IT.


bmcmullan@stcatharines.ca (bmcmullan@stcatharines.ca), jburch@stcatharines.ca (jburch@stcatharines.ca), jstevens@stcatharines.ca (jstevens@stcatharines.ca), agill@stcatharines.ca (agill@stcatharines.ca), jkushner@stcatharines.ca (jkushner@stcatharines.ca), psecord@stcatharines.ca (psecord@stcatharines.ca), gwashuta@stcatharines.ca (gwashuta@stcatharines.ca), melliott@stcatharines.ca (melliott@stcatharines.ca), hfoss@stcatharines.ca (hfoss@stcatharines.ca), bphillips@stcatharines.ca (bphillips@stcatharines.ca), ddodge@stcatharines.ca (ddodge@stcatharines.ca), lstack@stcatharines.ca (lstack@stcatharines.ca), bwilliamson@stcatharines.ca (bwilliamson@stcatharines.ca)

[AlphaDog]

Ok, I just emailed 8 of them. We need HUGE support on this one people.

[B-Rad]

The city would be foolish to not even entertain the study. It offers no direct commitment, but it seems silly to absolutely shut the door on a project that could have major economic potential for the region.

[AlphaDog]

DOH!!! I NEVER SAW THIS THREAD! I posted my msg about it as soon as I heard about it, before I read the 104 new msgs.

MODS: If anyone can merge the two threads that would be great.

[slamr]

I have emailed them all and got a few responses back.
If they go through with this study they will likely get swamped from people who will want NOTHING to do with this. It's a given.

[GoDogsGo]

i too have emailed all of them and have gotten a few responces...

[ItsGameTime]

merged and stickied.

[AlphaDog]

I have emailed them all and got a few responses back.
If they go through with this study they will likely get swamped from people who will want NOTHING to do with this. It's a given.

Definitely a possibility. Hanging out in these forums all day it's easy for one to think that the entire region shares our enthusiasm. But the average Joe complaining about his property taxes and water bill and what not, who's never been to a game, might be very against such a project.

I think if it's going to be done it's going to have to be private sector with a BIT of public backing.

[slamr]

I seriously doubt the city would do this alone. I believe that input from the private sector is absolutely critical. Without them it ain't happening...unless the gov feels in a generous mood. :001_rolleyes:

[Standing Room Only]

<TABLE id=HB_Mail_Container height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0 UNSELECTABLE="on"><TBODY><TR height="100%" UNSELECTABLE="on" width="100%"><TD id=HB_Focus_Element vAlign=top width="100%" background="" height=250 UNSELECTABLE="off"></TD></TR><TR UNSELECTABLE="on" hb_tag="1"><TD style="FONT-SIZE: 1pt" height=1 UNSELECTABLE="on">
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>didn't like this response...

Thanks for your email.

While a new Spectator Arena has not a been established as a capital
priority for the city at this time, Council is aware that the Niagara
Ice Dogs are playing in an older undersized facility. Council has
focused in recent weeks on priorities that will have economic
development impacts for the City. Beyond the creation of a new Aquatics
Centre, which in my opinion, only made it on the list as a priority because
of potential Provincial funding, Council has chosen The Niagara Centre
for the Arts, and the reconstruction of the Carlisle Parking Garage as
its Major Capital Priorities. Both projects provide huge economic
benefits to the City and in the end the taxpayer.

The Niagara Centre for the Arts will be attached to a new campus for the
Brock University School of Fine and Performing Arts. It is essential
that the City partner with Brock University on the Niagara Centre for
the Arts in order for the University to move its Campus to the Downtown
core of our city. The University will be investing approximately 25
million dollars into the Downtown core to create the School. In addition
they are committing approximately 1 million dollars per year toward the
operating costs of the Centre for the Arts. The Niagara Centre for the
Arts is estimated to cost approximately 30 million dollars, which we
expect will be funded in a three way split with the province and the
federal government, essentially costing the city 10 million dollars.
That works out to 55 million dollar investment into the Downtown of our
city, at a cost to the city of 10 million dollars! That is a good
investment with good return! But the story is even better than that!
Brock University will bring 75 jobs downtown, along with 400 arts
students! The Centre for the Arts will provide a space for performers,
whether actors or musicians, to ply their trade, for which they are also
paid. There will likely be gallery space included in the design where
Visual Artists can display there work, resulting in sales and income for
them. The economic impact will spill out to restaurant, retail and
services that are provided Downtown. Partnered with the potential for
the Wine Route to come through our City and its tourism impacts, this
creates very real economic opportunity for our City.

The Carlisle Street Parking Garage, beyond being an embarrassment to
this City, presents an opportunity to be an economic catalyst
both for the City as a whole, and for Downtown. It is inevitable that
Go Transit will be coming to St. Catharines in the very near future.
The province has stated that Downtown St.Catharines is to be the growth
centre here in the region, and as such will be linking Go Transit to the
City.
It is likely that his service will initially be in the form of bus transit.
The
Downtown terminal will become the City's access to Go Transit, and
consequently the Carlisle parking garage will be required for commuter
parking. Go Transit can be directly linked to economic development.
Just look around the Lake to those communities that are already
connected. Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington all have experienced
enormous growth and wealth as a result, and can consequently provide
better quality of life for their residents. This new parking garage
will also service the Niagara Centre for the Arts, potentially, the
Niagara Regional Police, and the commercial district as a whole.

Recently, some developers and philanthropists have come forward with
some ideas about the redevelopment of the Arenas downtown. While
the development of a Spectator Arena is not currently a priority for this
City Council, we remain open to opportunities that may arise. If the
private
sector becomes interested in the creation of a spectator facility, we will
work with them to facilitate its creation. If a case can be built for real
economic development through the creation of such a facility, and it can
be shown that such a facility would be a good investment of our
residents tax dollars with a clear return, then council would be happy
to become an limited economic partner of such a venture. Councillor Burch's
motion, which we will hear on Monday, deals with just that. Is there an
strong
economic development case for investment into a new Arena? We will continue
to
meet with the developers to explore opportunities.

The real question is whether the residents of St. Catharines are willing to
shell out
Millions of dollars for another arena. I suspect that there will be extreme
resistance
to this expenditure. It has been suggested that the province and federal
government
might contribute to this project and well they might. However, we have
already asked
them, or anticipate asking them to contribute to numerous other very
important
projects, such as those listed above. We will remember that the Provincial
Government,
in recent weeks provided Brock University with over 35 million dollars for
their new
Biosciences complex. It is expected that the Federal Government will match
this
commitment, however, this is an anticipated 100 million dollar facility.
The remainder
of the capital required will be raised through fund raising. Which brings
me to my final
point.

All of these major projects are going to require some form of fund raising
in the
community. The Performing Arts Centre will be looking for benefactors, as
will Brock
University for its School of Fine and Performing Arts. Brock Biosciences,
an Aquatics
Centre, a 5000 seat Arena/Entertainment Complex, and a new state of the art
Hospital
complete with Regional Heart and Cancer Centres will all be competing for
the same
donors. Does this community really have the financial resources to pay?

The actions taken by council to prioritize capital expenditures, in the
context of need and
economic impact was an act of necessity. There is only so much public money
in the purse
and we are committed to using that money wisely! The Niagara Ice Dogs have
committed to
a five year lease of the current arena. Mr. Burke has publicly stated that
he is satisfied with
that arrangement. While we must deal with the selected Capital Priorities
first, within this
five year period, it is anticipated that council will have to deal with a
new home for the Ice
Dogs. We will continue to look for private partnerships and alternative
means of funding in
order to expedite this needed facility.
----
Jeff Burch's email was good thoguh. he said with hard work he thinks we can get a new arena.


Hey PM who sent that email so I remember come elections

[Phil Margonis]

mark elliot sent it to me.

[gord]

The only reason we will need Go Transit,is because we (working class )people will need it to go to another city for work.

[GoDogsGo]

The only reason we will need Go Transit,is because we (working class )people will need it to go to another city for work.
and to go to a concert at copps instead of stayng in our own city and leaving OUR hard earned money in the region...:cursing:

[Casey]

I got the same email response

[Swifty14]

Why hasn't anybody brought up the abortion of a four pad that council "so wisely spent taxpayers money on?" Who are you clowns in council kiddin? You've been blowing our overinflated tax dollars for years and now you want to take a stand when the region gets a viable source of income such as the IceDogs. How about not wasting more of our money while you debate the new facility for ever with your thumbs up your arses! Aquatics park? What the hell are you thinking? Our population is aging, we close more schools a year and open more retirement facilities than you can shake a stick at in this region, not to mention water is so Dham expensive these days you don't even want to flush your toilet because it is literally washing money down the tubes! Why in a million years would this ever even come about as a topic? Councilors got some young kids they want to through in a park for a day?? Everyone else takes their kids to Y.M.C.A or Brock!! Why don't you use your great partnership with Brock U to arrange something for use of their pool? Council simply makes me sick, its a group of toolboxes who get together every week and waste each others time and our money, and in the end I believe tries to keep the city and its people down. Now that a short rant is done, why don't we talk about a much more cost effective retro fit of the number 1 pad at the four pad arena that was just built? Has any council member even brought this up or do you not want to talk about the dump you built anymore. Lets stop making this thing such a huge deal about $40 million, land, leases etc. See how much it would cost to make the $25 million dollar debauchery into a real hockey rink, and move Brock back to the Jack!!! And you council members better not say,"the survey will cost $2 million dollars". I'm sure i've just wasted my breath like you waste our money.

[B-Rad]

Oh snap. Swifty14 for council! You'd get my vote

[brendan_435]

Why hasn't anybody brought up the abortion of a four pad that council "so wisely spent taxpayers money on?" Who are you clowns in council kiddin? You've been blowing our overinflated tax dollars for years and now you want to take a stand when the region gets a viable source of income such as the IceDogs. How about not wasting more of our money while you debate the new facility for ever with your thumbs up your arses! Aquatics park? What the hell are you thinking? Our population is aging, we close more schools a year and open more retirement facilities than you can shake a stick at in this region, not to mention water is so Dham expensive these days you don't even want to flush your toilet because it is literally washing money down the tubes! Why in a million years would this ever even come about as a topic? Councilors got some young kids they want to through in a park for a day?? Everyone else takes their kids to Y.M.C.A or Brock!! Why don't you use your great partnership with Brock U to arrange something for use of their pool? Council simply makes me sick, its a group of toolboxes who get together every week and waste each others time and our money, and in the end I believe tries to keep the city and its people down. Now that a short rant is done, why don't we talk about a much more cost effective retro fit of the number 1 pad at the four pad arena that was just built? Has any council member even brought this up or do you not want to talk about the dump you built anymore. Lets stop making this thing such a huge deal about $40 million, land, leases etc. See how much it would cost to make the $25 million dollar debauchery into a real hockey rink, and move Brock back to the Jack!!! And you council members better not say,"the survey will cost $2 million dollars". I'm sure i've just wasted my breath like you waste our money.
wow. i honestly couldn't have said it any better. except i HATE the fourpad, and really would rather see the dogs play out of the jack, than a 5000 seat pad at the fourpad. once again, props on the post. that's a perfect description of the city council, and all it stands for. Come on, how many people are actually going to use this "aquatic facility." If i wanna go for a swim, in the summer i go to my backyard. in the winter, i go after i'm done working out at the Y. How many people can the aquatic centre pool hold? 100 tops? Well if you figure that an arena could hold 5000+. I think that if you can entertain 5000 people at one time, it's more cost effective than entertaining 100. Just my personal opinion tho.

[AlphaDog]

wow. i honestly couldn't have said it any better. except i HATE the fourpad, and really would rather see the dogs play out of the jack, than a 5000 seat pad at the fourpad. once again, props on the post. that's a perfect description of the city council, and all it stands for. Come on, how many people are actually going to use this "aquatic facility." If i wanna go for a swim, in the summer i go to my backyard. in the winter, i go after i'm done working out at the Y. How many people can the aquatic centre pool hold? 100 tops? Well if you figure that an arena could hold 5000+. I think that if you can entertain 5000 people at one time, it's more cost effective than entertaining 100. Just my personal opinion tho.

DEFINITELY on the text in bold ^^. The 4 pad serves it's purpose I guess, but I'd rather STAY AT THE JACK, a building with character oozing out its old walls, than a lifeless MORGUE like the 4-pad.

That's one thing I'm SCARED of if they DO build a new rink - it'll be a lifeless grey dark morgue like the missy/brampton buildings. Sure they're big, they're comfortable - but gimme Kitchener's rink over them any day!!

Then again, I have a huge bias towards rinks with balcony seating. I just love the look and feel of them. If I could make a 6000 seat rink, with 3 levels of 2000 seats each, I would, hehee. Maybe I just enjoyed myself too much up top at the old Buffalo Aud when I was a kid :confused1:

[tml]

I agree with Swifty14. I really hope that the city eventually does build us a new arena but the reality is that this city has been in decline and will continue to decline because we think and act like a third class city. Always bemoaning our plight but doing nothing to change it. We (IceDog fans) are thinking big, first class 5000 seat MULTI USE facility and city council is thinking about a freaken pool. An ARTS centre? Really? No offence to the people of St. Catharines but our residents really don't seem like the ARTSY type. We finally have something in the city that thousands of people can get behind several times a week and city council's priority is a friggin pool. God help us!

[GoDogsGo]

big day tommorow.... cant wait to see if this is a go....

[dutchguy7]

Any news on whether council passed this or not yet?

[GoDogsGo]

still early....

[GoDogsGo]

here is a link to the feb 4th meeting:
http://www.stcatharines.ca/resources/summarized%20results-%20capital%20priorities-%20feb%2008.pdf

[GoDogsGo]

and a new link that has been added to the city website...not active yet...
http://arenacommittee.inet-niagara.com/arena000.asp

[AlphaDog]

Yah I put on ch.10 and all I had was Grimsby council at like 7, then at 8 until 10 or whatever it was Niagara Falls council. You'd THINK they would play St. Kitts council in St. Kitts, NF council in NF, etc...

[GoDogsGo]

Yah I put on ch.10 and all I had was Grimsby council at like 7, then at 8 until 10 or whatever it was Niagara Falls council. You'd THINK they would play St. Kitts council in St. Kitts, NF council in NF, etc...
ummm that would be common sense... and we all know that common sense is NOT so common...:beatdeadhorse5:

[fishfan51]

ummm that would be common sence... and we all know that common sence is NOT so common...:beatdeadhorse5:

Do we all know that it is spelled sense...not sence. LOL! I kid I kid :001_tongue:

[GoDogsGo]

Do we all know that it is spelled sense...not sence. LOL! I kid I kid :001_tongue:
:wink: i fixed it so it doesnt bother you....LOL:thumbup::D

[dutchguy7]

Haha, we need an icedogs spelling bee, your next word is Pietrangelo. Yikes there's a toughy

[LocalSportsReport]

The motion was approved. Staff is to report back to council in about a month. All councillors who spoke said that they would like to see a new arena eventually built. It was also mentioned that there appears to be a lot of supporters for a new arena.

I think we have to keep showing our support by e-mailing or calling councillors, writing a letter to the editor in the newspaper, etc. They appear to be listening.

[dutchguy7]

The motion was approved. Staff is to report back to council in about a month. All councillors who spoke said that they would like to see a new arena eventually built. It was also mentioned that there appears to be a lot of supporters for a new arena.

I think we have to keep showing our support by e-mailing or calling councillors, writing a letter to the editor in the newspaper, etc. They appear to be listening.

YES! That's great news!

[GoDogsGo]

they have no other choice but to listen... this is a great move for this city and region... we will become the sports hub east of hamilton... i love it...

[strohs]

they have no other choice but to listen... this is a great move for this city and region... we will become the sports hub east of hamilton... i love it...

(are we East of Hamilton, or South of Hamilton?)

:cheers2:

[AlphaDog]

We are east of Hamilton (look at a map!! :) )

That's very good news indeed. Sure it doesn't mean they're building anything, but at least it shows it's still on their agenda, and that they haven't given a definitive NO yet. Maybe they're just leading us on for the time being, who knows, but I'm just so happy right now that they didn't crush the whole idea that I'll take it as a positive :)

[GoDogsGo]

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/hov/image/map-figure1.gif
looks east to me....

[strohs]

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/hov/image/map-figure1.gif
looks east to me....

I really feel stupid...lol....I always thought we were south....I guess we're somewhat south, but definitely east, my bad!

lol

[GoDogsGo]

I really feel stupid...lol....I always thought we were south....I guess we're somewhat south, but definitely east, my bad!

lol
lol... no worries... kinda south eastish it is then...LOL:cheers2: