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  #481  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:08 PM
Dogtired Dogtired is offline
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Originally Posted by Blacksox View Post
But here is something you can do:
Read through these two reports of the investigation and post in detail the indisputable evidence uncovered in the investigation - that verifies Zach Wilkie’s allegations against the IceDogs and the money owed (40,000).

Court papers shed light on IceDogs’ legal battle
https://www.stcatharinesstandard.ca/...-legal-battle/

OHL investigation finds IceDogs signed secret deals with multiple players
https://www.tsn.ca/ohl-investigation...yers-1.1301433

…if this is too difficult or you simply can’t find any evidence, you can ignore this request.
Both parties are in agreement that an offer was made on June 8 at the Holiday Inn.

From the TSN Article: On June 8, 2013, Wilkie and his parents arrived at the Holiday Inn in St. Catharines, Ont. for the IceDogs’ orientation day.....The Wilkies met in a boardroom at the Holiday Inn with husband-and-wife co-owners Bill and Denise Burke and their son, Joey Burke, the IceDogs’ assistant general manager. “There are two accounts of the meeting that diverge significantly,” the investigation report says.

The article goes on to say that Burke claimed that at the meeting he only promised that Wilkie’s education package would be “inflation protected” while the Wilkie’s and Williamson are claiming Burke agreed to the $10,000 per season side deal.

The article also says: After the meeting, the Wilkies decided to sign with the IceDogs, against the advice of their agent.

So really it is that simple. This does not involve Williamson later offering the side deal to Wilkie or Joey offering the side deal to Wilkie under Williamson’s control without Bill’s knowledge. That’s just fantasy made up by people on this site. The truth is both parties are in agreement that the offer was made at the Holiday Inn board room on June 8 by Burke. The ONLY thing that is controversial is what Burke agreed to.

So the investigators had to determine who told the truth and who lied. Lawyers Andrew Winton and Sapna Thakker interviewed 12 witnesses and reviewed a series of emails, player contracts and other documents before concluding “that the Wilkie family, former general manager Marty Williamson and head scout John Neville provided more credible testimony.”

The articles did not reveal all of the evidence that supported the investigators claim. However, the investigators are in a much better position than we are to make that determination.

As well, it was discovered that the IceDogs negotiated a side deal with Liam Ham in order to get him to play for the club, which likely further hurt their credibility.

I don’t think you understand that this is not an innocent until proven guilty type of case. This is a dispute between two parties. Both parties agree an oral offer was made but differ on what that offer was. The IceDogs claim the offer was only for the education package to be “inflation protected,” while the Wilkie’s claim it was $10,000 per season for education. So the investigators have to decide which story is the right story.

In the end, the investigators decided that Wilkie’s story, which was supported by testimony from Williamson and Neville was more credible.
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  #482  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:16 PM
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What if Marty lied and screwed the IceDogs out of $125,000 and admitted to breaking the rules himself because he doesn't work for that club anymore and can't be punished by the OHL only by a team. I bet he was reluctant, probably just had to wait a few minutes for his tent not to be noticeable. You have only made a few posts Dogturd but something smells stinky here.
But Williamson didn’t break the rules himself because both the IceDogs and the Wilkie’s agree that the oral offer was made on June 8 at the Holiday Inn by Burke. The only thing that is up for debate is whether Burke offered that the education package be inflation protected or if he offered $10,000 per season for education. The articles CLEARLY states that Williamson didn’t make the offer. Again, why do you make things up that after reading the articles we know are not true.

Last edited by Dogtired; 05-10-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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  #483  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Dogtired View Post
Both parties are in agreement that an offer was made on June 8 at the Holiday Inn.

From the TSN Article: On June 8, 2013, Wilkie and his parents arrived at the Holiday Inn in St. Catharines, Ont. for the IceDogs’ orientation day.....The Wilkies met in a boardroom at the Holiday Inn with husband-and-wife co-owners Bill and Denise Burke and their son, Joey Burke, the IceDogs’ assistant general manager. “There are two accounts of the meeting that diverge significantly,” the investigation report says.

The article goes on to say that Burke claimed that at the meeting he only promised that Wilkie’s education package would be “inflation protected” while the Wilkie’s and Williamson are claiming Burke agreed to the $10,000 per season side deal.

The article also says: After the meeting, the Wilkies decided to sign with the IceDogs, against the advice of their agent.

So really it is that simple. This does not involve Williamson later offering the side deal to Wilkie or Joey offering the side deal to Wilkie under Williamson’s control without Bill’s knowledge. That’s just fantasy made up by people on this site. The truth is both parties are in agreement that the offer was made at the Holiday Inn board room on June 8 by Burke. The ONLY thing that is controversial is what Burke agreed to.

So the investigators had to determine who told the truth and who lied. Lawyers Andrew Winton and Sapna Thakker interviewed 12 witnesses and reviewed a series of emails, player contracts and other documents before concluding “that the Wilkie family, former general manager Marty Williamson and head scout John Neville provided more credible testimony.”

The articles did not reveal all of the evidence that supported the investigators claim. However, the investigators are in a much better position than we are to make that determination.

As well, it was discovered that the IceDogs negotiated a side deal with Liam Ham in order to get him to play for the club, which likely further hurt their credibility.

I don’t think you understand that this is not an innocent until proven guilty type of case. This is a dispute between two parties. Both parties agree an oral offer was made but differ on what that offer was. The IceDogs claim the offer was only for the education package to be “inflation protected,” while the Wilkie’s claim it was $10,000 per season for education. So the investigators have to decide which story is the right story.

In the end, the investigators decided that Wilkie’s story, which was supported by testimony from Williamson and Neville was more credible.
Interesting that they refer to testimony when there was no court hearing to testify at.

Is it possible Dogtired, "possible" that the Burkes made one agreement for a lower insignificant amount and Williamson made another? Why would the agent advise against the deal if it was giving all that his client wanted? That actually supports the Burke's assertion, "they wanted $40K we did not agree" and therefore the agent was unhappy, advising his client not to sign.
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  #484  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:25 PM
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It is my sincere hope that you are an Ice Dogs fan.
but,
if you should turn out to be an Evil Empire fan, I would have to re-think my welcome LOL
I am definitely an IceDogs fan and think that London likely has offered even more than the IceDogs have.

To be honest, all the IceDogs did was offer one more full ride than they were allowed to. I am sure most, if not all, of the teams have done that at some point and probably much worse. But the IceDogs should have never tried to get out of paying the $40,000 as that was just wrong.

I just hate to see people ignore facts and start making up crazy stories that we know are not true. IceDogs fans are hurting right now, including myself. We don’t need crazy conspiracy theories making life worst.
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  #485  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:34 PM
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Interesting that they refer to testimony when there was no court hearing to testify at.

Is it possible Dogtired, "possible" that the Burkes made one agreement for a lower insignificant amount and Williamson made another? Why would the agent advise against the deal if it was giving all that his client wanted? That actually supports the Burke's assertion, "they wanted $40K we did not agree" and therefore the agent was unhappy, advising his client not to sign.
In my opinion that is not possible at all. If it was, the Wilkie’s would have said that Williamson made another deal. The IceDogs would have still been on the hook for the money as Williamson was an employee of the IceDogs. Why would the Wilkie’s lie and say Burke made the agreement if they could have told the truth and said Williamson made the deal.

And the agent did not want his client to sign because he said that unless the deal was put in writing, he didn’t think his client should sign. That was also in one of the articles. So in other words, the agent didn’t trust Burke.
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  #486  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:34 PM
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I just hate to see people ignore facts and start making up crazy stories that we know are not true. IceDogs fans are hurting right now, including myself. We don’t need crazy conspiracy theories making life worst.
We don't have facts, we have a divergence of accounts and a credibility issue that has been adjudicated by an investigator. That is not traditionally the role of an investigator. We don't have the sum total of the investigation, we have a brief summary. There is plenty of room for additional opinions in this matter.
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  #487  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:40 PM
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In my opinion that is not possible at all. If it was, the Wilkie’s would have said that Williamson made another deal. The IceDogs would have still been on the hook for the money as Williamson was an employee of the IceDogs. Why would the Wilkie’s lie and say Burke made the agreement if they could have told the truth and said Williamson made the deal.

And the agent did not want his client to sign because he said that unless the deal was put in writing, he didn’t think his client should sign. That was also in one of the articles. So in other words, the agent didn’t trust Burke.
In 2018 Williamson didn't have $40K to spare but the IceDogs did, that is one good reason to lie.

If the agent wasn't trusting back in the day, it was Burke and Williamson he wasn't trusting (don't forget everyone was still playing nice in the sandbox back then). Williamson was the driving force behind putting the deal in a safe and trying to convince Burke to proceed, yet you insist on vilifying Bill Burke.
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  #488  
Old 05-10-2019, 01:48 PM
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Both parties are in agreement that an offer was made on June 8 at the Holiday Inn.

From the TSN Article: On June 8, 2013, Wilkie and his parents arrived at the Holiday Inn in St. Catharines, Ont. for the IceDogs’ orientation day.....The Wilkies met in a boardroom at the Holiday Inn with husband-and-wife co-owners Bill and Denise Burke and their son, Joey Burke, the IceDogs’ assistant general manager. “There are two accounts of the meeting that diverge significantly,” the investigation report says.

The article goes on to say that Burke claimed that at the meeting he only promised that Wilkie’s education package would be “inflation protected” while the Wilkie’s and Williamson are claiming Burke agreed to the $10,000 per season side deal.

The article also says: After the meeting, the Wilkies decided to sign with the IceDogs, against the advice of their agent.

So really it is that simple. This does not involve Williamson later offering the side deal to Wilkie or Joey offering the side deal to Wilkie under Williamson’s control without Bill’s knowledge. That’s just fantasy made up by people on this site. The truth is both parties are in agreement that the offer was made at the Holiday Inn board room on June 8 by Burke. The ONLY thing that is controversial is what Burke agreed to.

Exactly, “The ONLY thing that is controversial is what Burke agreed to.”

So where is this tangible evidence that proves Zach Wilkie’s allegations?

So again, I'll ask you where are the facts to support those allegations on the Burkes?


Here are a few thing for you to consider when passing judgement on this particular case:

In common law jurisdictions, a properly conducted investigation, the hired Law Firm primary responsibility was to interview the witnesses and report the facts obtained and not provide their opinion on what was documented during the witness interviews.

The main rationale for such a procedure is that the inclusion of opinion evidence can mislead a jury in a court of law or this case mislead the OHL commissioner David Branch. David Branch used OPINION ONLY as the bases of his initial verdict on the Burkes – since as you can clearly read there no concrete evidence to confirm Zach Wilkie’s claim of a 40,000 deal was ever agreed upon.

In general, opinion evidence is unreliable, undemocratic, unfair and thus irrelevant when trying fairly exact punishment.

Sorry, but we will never know what really happened behind closed doors - but the facts are clear, Zach Wilkie's allegations and the subsequent sanctions initially imposed were handled poorly by David Branch.

Last edited by Blacksox; 05-10-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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  #489  
Old 05-10-2019, 03:05 PM
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I can’t wait until the preseason starts lol


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  #490  
Old 05-10-2019, 08:11 PM
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Sorry, but we will never know what really happened behind closed doors - but the facts are clear, Zach Wilkie's allegations and the subsequent sanctions initially imposed were handled poorly by David Branch.
So on one hand you say we will never know what happened behind closed doors (or was it brought out in the report to the league?). And the you that it was handled poorly by Branch. Where are the hard facts for that, or is it merely your opinion? I'm sure there would be people who say it was handled fairly and yet others who would say too leniently. We can all watch the same game and have different viewpoints even though we saw the same thing. It is merely your opinion that it was handled poorly not a fact.
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