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  #41  
Old 02-28-2017, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jumbo1290 View Post
you're assuming that money was derived from hockey; could be another source
I was assuming nothing, just agreeing with fishfans that the owners should stop crying poor.

As for the Burke's ... they had a very successful large printing business before moving to Niagara.
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  #42  
Old 02-28-2017, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fishfan51 View Post
If they're making good money, great they earned it. Just stop telling everyone you're not.
According to the article, when Denise Burke testified by affidavit November 14, 2015 and claimed that paying players a wage would be a financial hardship, she would have been relying on financials from May of that year, showing a profit of $438,679. If you took into account a projected $300,000 wage cost that is a significant portion of the profits.

Now fast forward to May of 2016 and the profit was $643,544 which is a much better return but if she had that kind of clairvoyance to know what the team was going to make a year later so she could testify to that under oath - she should have instead picked winning LottoMax numbers and cleared $50M. Yes, now things are better than they were in 2015 but they were worse in 2014. I hope they continue to improve over the next ten years because I am confident as owners they will invest heavily in the team and build an even better product.

Bottom line, ability to pay only becomes an issue if the court rules the players are employees. If they rule they are student athletes then the amount any team makes is irrelevant to the argument.
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  #43  
Old 02-28-2017, 09:44 PM
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Default Niagara Icedogs financial earnings

http://www.tsn.ca/lawyers-follow-the...cials-1.682888
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  #44  
Old 02-28-2017, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinkyp3t3 View Post
You should see their house.

Good for them I say.
Is it as nice as Dale Hunter's? Looking at the profits he rakes in 3x what the Burke's make. I wonder if he would mind paying players?
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  #45  
Old 02-28-2017, 10:39 PM
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Is it as nice as Dale Hunter's? Looking at the profits he rakes in 3x what the Burke's make. I wonder if he would mind paying players?
I assumed he already was.
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  #46  
Old 03-01-2017, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by fishfan51 View Post
I think his point is the optics are bad. You can't have four luxury cars on the books and then say paying min wage would be catastrophic.

If they're making good money, great they earned it. Just stop telling everyone you're not.
I think some important facts are being lost in this argument.

1) According to the TSN article, the team had a loss of $103,000 in their last season at the Jack. During that season, the team had an average attendance of almost 3,000 per game. Seven teams in total had average attendance of about 3,000 or less. If the IceDogs are not profitable with 3,000 fans per game playing in an arena where they pay no rent and have 100% of the revenue, I think it is safe to assume that most of the teams with attendance under 3,000 likely make little to no profit. In fact, I think it's safe to assume that almost every season at the Jack, the IceDogs incurred a loss.

2) 2016 was an exceptional year financially for the team. They made it all the way to the finals bringing in extra ticket revenue which will not normally be there. In 2015, the team had 2 playoff rounds which again is more than the average team plays.

3) According to the TSN article, "Lawyers on both sides of the lawsuit have estimated it would cost teams up to $300,000 per season" to pay players and in 2015, the IceDogs made $438,000. So as long as the IceDogs make it to at least the second round of the playoffs each year like they did in 2015 (which only 8 of 20 teams do), then the IceDogs would make a profit of $138,000 after paying the players. Do you honestly think that $138,000 is a fair return on investment? Again, according to the TSN article, Nick Angellotti, president of Williams & Partners Forensic Accountants Inc. in Toronto, after reviewing the IceDogs’ financial statements said, “In a normal business, where all you care about is money, you’re probably wanting a 20 per-cent return on an investment like that. You’re going to want a $1-million profit per year." While obviously most OHL owners care about other things then money, they still deserve a fair return on their investment.

4) While some of the better performing teams can afford to pay their players, many teams cannot. The City of Peterborough recently renegotiated the Petes lease to allow the Petes to earn about $350,000 more a season. This was done after the city learned that the Petes, who are a not-for-profit organization, had lost $658,000 over the last 5 seasons and had to dip into their reserves to cover the shortfall. The team was on track to become bankrupt and would need to be sold without a better lease agreement. And speaking of bankruptcy, it seems many have forgotten that the Erie Otters declared bankruptcy in 2015.

If the OHL is forced to pay their players, many teams will be forced to move or fold. Some of the other teams may be able to afford it, but the decrease in profit will make owning an OHL team a very bad investment. Otherwise, the OHL will need to make cuts in other places, likely ending scholarships for the players which would make the players no further ahead then they are now.

Last edited by LocalSportsReport; 03-01-2017 at 12:17 AM.
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  #47  
Old 03-01-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by LocalSportsReport View Post
I think some important facts are being lost in this argument.


If the OHL is forced to pay their players, many teams will be forced to move or fold. Some of the other teams may be able to afford it, but the decrease in profit will make owning an OHL team a very bad investment. Otherwise, the OHL will need to make cuts in other places, likely ending scholarships for the players which would make the players no further ahead then they are now.
If the CHL cuts any benefits like scholarships, equipment, etc. The top players will all just go to the NCAA where that's taken care of. The only reason (the CHL would never admit this) they offer scholarships to begin with, is because kids were going States side more and more often.

I would imagine the parents of any player that is good enough to get a scholarship in the USA would send their kid there if the scholarships were taken away here.

Personally, I don't think the kids should be paid. I think the scholarships is their payment and is worth more than any minimum wage.

But, I also don't believe the numbers on either side of the argument when it comes to the money made or spent. I.E. Windsor losing $200K while averaging more fans than Niagara who made over 600K? Or Erie losing close to a million dollars while averaging only 100 fewer fans per game than Niagara? Sudbury made money while Sarnia lost half a million dollars with virtually the same attendance?

Last edited by fishfan51; 03-01-2017 at 09:47 AM.
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  #48  
Old 03-01-2017, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LocalSportsReport View Post
I think some important facts are being lost in this argument.

1) According to the TSN article, the team had a loss of $103,000 in their last season at the Jack. During that season, the team had an average attendance of almost 3,000 per game. Seven teams in total had average attendance of about 3,000 or less. If the IceDogs are not profitable with 3,000 fans per game playing in an arena where they pay no rent and have 100% of the revenue, I think it is safe to assume that most of the teams with attendance under 3,000 likely make little to no profit. In fact, I think it's safe to assume that almost every season at the Jack, the IceDogs incurred a loss.

2) 2016 was an exceptional year financially for the team. They made it all the way to the finals bringing in extra ticket revenue which will not normally be there. In 2015, the team had 2 playoff rounds which again is more than the average team plays.

3) According to the TSN article, "Lawyers on both sides of the lawsuit have estimated it would cost teams up to $300,000 per season" to pay players and in 2015, the IceDogs made $438,000. So as long as the IceDogs make it to at least the second round of the playoffs each year like they did in 2015 (which only 8 of 20 teams do), then the IceDogs would make a profit of $138,000 after paying the players. Do you honestly think that $138,000 is a fair return on investment? Again, according to the TSN article, Nick Angellotti, president of Williams & Partners Forensic Accountants Inc. in Toronto, after reviewing the IceDogs’ financial statements said, “In a normal business, where all you care about is money, you’re probably wanting a 20 per-cent return on an investment like that. You’re going to want a $1-million profit per year." While obviously most OHL owners care about other things then money, they still deserve a fair return on their investment.

4) While some of the better performing teams can afford to pay their players, many teams cannot. The City of Peterborough recently renegotiated the Petes lease to allow the Petes to earn about $350,000 more a season. This was done after the city learned that the Petes, who are a not-for-profit organization, had lost $658,000 over the last 5 seasons and had to dip into their reserves to cover the shortfall. The team was on track to become bankrupt and would need to be sold without a better lease agreement. And speaking of bankruptcy, it seems many have forgotten that the Erie Otters declared bankruptcy in 2015.

If the OHL is forced to pay their players, many teams will be forced to move or fold. Some of the other teams may be able to afford it, but the decrease in profit will make owning an OHL team a very bad investment. Otherwise, the OHL will need to make cuts in other places, likely ending scholarships for the players which would make the players no further ahead then they are now.
What a loss at the end of the day? Both parents, both kids and both kids partners are all employed by the team. Are they being paid normal wages for the positions they hold?

The scholarship money is great but a good portion of the kids never even use it. I'm really not a big fan of the players asking for pay but would like to see them remove time restrictions on using the scholarships. Let the players pursue pro careers without losing the money.

Ideally the OHL would get together with the NCAA and figure out a way to have them stop making their players ineligible that would benefit both sides. Perhaps donating a players scholarship money to the school he goes to or something would work.
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  #49  
Old 03-01-2017, 01:18 PM
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I would like the NHL to sponcer the league again
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  #50  
Old 03-01-2017, 03:02 PM
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What a loss at the end of the day? Both parents, both kids and both kids partners are all employed by the team. Are they being paid normal wages for the positions they hold?

The scholarship money is great but a good portion of the kids never even use it. I'm really not a big fan of the players asking for pay but would like to see them remove time restrictions on using the scholarships. Let the players pursue pro careers without losing the money.

Ideally the OHL would get together with the NCAA and figure out a way to have them stop making their players ineligible that would benefit both sides. Perhaps donating a players scholarship money to the school he goes to or something would work.
That is a point I have been making all along. Not every boy is bound for post-secondary education; some because they will be pros in either the NHL or AHL but others because they don't have academic interests. For the player who knows he won't go NCAA or to a professional league, perhaps a pay-cheque is the best option; or if the educational package is selected then it becomes their right regardless of when they use it or what level they climbed to in hockey.

I think the future of the CHL will include various forms of compensation options including a salary, educational reimbursement or a hybrid of the two.
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